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PROFILE - Dr. Krishna Prasad Sreedhar
Dr. Krishna Prasad Sreedhar (KPS) is an effective teacher, a renowned Clinical Psychologist and a highly communicative person. He has developed a unique and very beautiful writing style both in English and in the vernacular (Malayalam) for counseling through letters. He published a book in vernacular. One may translate the title of the book as “Guidance by a Psychologist’. His warmth and concern for the clients are evident in this book.
KPS has a multifaceted personality and finds time to manage his different roles effectively. He is at once a Teacher, academician, writer, Clinical Psychologist and a householder.
THE SETTING
When I contacted Dr. Krishna Prasad Sreedhar through email for the interview, he had just returned from his Dubai trip. However, he replied to me agreeing for the interview. He gave me the appointment on 21st February, 2006 at 2 p.m. The duration given was one and a half hours, which I felt as a very short time for an in depth interview which I have planned. Nevertheless, I thought I would try.
THE TEAM
This time, Vinod Divakaran (VD), Ganesh Mahadevan(GM) a medical representative and medical transcriptionist, Satheesh Kumar (SKS) a close friend of mine who is very much interested in health related issues and Psychology constituted the team. I communicated to each of the team members the criteria, the theme etc. of the interview and a short profile and behavior sketch of Dr.Krishna Prasad Sreedhar so as to aid quick rapport and synchronization. I wanted to have a woman also in the interview team but could not find one. GM was assigned the role of an observer and a “value addition” role or rather an “extra player” role. All others were given topics for the interview. But, a week before the stipulated date, SKS phoned me to say that he was assigned an unavoidable duty by his superior and so cannot come for the interview. Since he has had his own questions to ask, it was a problem if he didn’t come. So I thought he might ask questions over the phone. Then, two days before the interview, VD got a phone from a company at Bangalore asking him to attend an interview for one of his dream jobs. So, he also had to quit the team. Thus, in the last hours, I had to change the whole strategy. GM who was given a rather passive role of an observer was put forward and given the active role of an interviewer.
Thus the actual interview team consisted of myself (Ajan Raghunathan AR), Ganesh Mahadevan (GM) and Satheesh Kumar (SKS).
VENUE
The residence of Dr.Krishna Prasad Sreedhar is about 35 kms from our office. We decided to go by bike and started at about 1230 hours and reached Pundit’s colony (literally, the colony of scholars. I don’t know if all the dwellers in this colony are scholars are not. But Dr.Krishna Prasad Sreedhar surely is.) near Kawadiyar, Trivandrum at about 1345 hours, 15 minutes earlier than the appointment time. The house name is kripa (Sanskrit/Malayalam kindness. Surely the house might have radiated kindness to the clients who came to see him). We pushed open the blue colored gate and entered the very spacious front-yard (probably not as spacious as his mind!). The compound is about half an acre with a two storied building at the center of the compound and a separate two-room clinic/consulting rooms. The clinic is not totally separated from the main building but an extension which was constructed in such a way that this is away from the noise and disturbances of the household life. The building is connected to the main building at one end just like a fetus to the umbilical cord. This can be seen as a mark of how he kept his profession from not mixing with his family life although he is very fond of his profession – he seems to have given the desired share to both his family and his profession. The earthen pavement that starts from the gate ends in front of the clinic. The clinic is run in a two room building. One room is waiting room for clients and those who have accompanied the client. There are two benches placed opposite to each other in that room. A lot of magazines were neatly arranged on the shelf and two or three were on the table. The person with the client can engage himself/herself by reading one of these while the client is with KPS. The second room is the consulting room with two doors from either side. KPS enters and leaves through the rear door while the client does so through the front door which opens to the waiting room.
The tiled counseling room measured 18 x 20 meters and was very clean and tidy with a couch on the right of the entry door. A portable audio deck to administer his award winning relaxation and stress management tool: the Guided Somato Psychic Relaxation (GSPR) is seen on the head side of the bed. Almost at the centre of the room is a table with chairs on both sides. Behind his seat, a picture of lord Krishna and Arjuna as depicted in Bhagavad Gita was on the wall. It is the picture of Arjuna kneeling before Lord Krishna pleading for guidance and counseling. This we believe depicts the mental state of the client who comes for counseling. One the left of the seat of KPS is a small cupboard in which some books and various psychological test booklets are placed.
Opposite to the wall on which the picture of Krishna and Arjuna, is a concrete wall shelf in which was a different picture of lord Krishna driving the chariot of warrior Arjuna, with his bow and arrows confident and ready to fight the inevitable war. When a client returns after a session, if (s)he is observant (s)he can see this picture, portraying his/her own inner state of having empowered after the session.
THE MOOD OF THE INTERVIEW
KPS was very congenial through out the interview. I, somehow, felt a little tensed not because of interviewing KPS but because of the time limitation. As the interview continued, KPS gave the impression that we had all the time in the world.
CLASSIFICATION OF QUESTIONS
We already decided that the focus of the interview should be clinical psychology and related topics. We also wanted to give representation to other topics as well. Hence, the questions were roughly classified into Personal, General, Clinical, Social, and Spiritual.
A NOTE ON TRANSLATION
Reporting the interview with KPS was not an easy job because of the depth and richness of his thought. Moreover, there were a lot of pivotal switching and interplay of ideas in his thought, which were not so easy to express in the English language. Thus, we might have made a number of’ compromises in the translation.
THE INTERVIEW PROPER
Before the interview, I introduced my friends to KPS and briefed him about our requirements.
PERSONAL
AR: Sir, I remember reading what you wrote once. In that, you seem to have stated that a Clinical Psychologist had to handle different planes of existence from the personal to the spiritual. You also said that these planes are continuous. Thus, this interview is divided into 5 parts: 1st is about your personal details, and 2 to 5 are about some of those planes you referred to in that article. My friend Ganesh Mahadevan will ask you a few questions now.
GM: Sir, please tell us about your personal details like about your parents, siblings, wife and children.
KPS: I was born and brought up in Trivandrum, Kerala. My father was a Supervisor of the medical representatives of a Swiss company. My mother was a homemaker. My siblings and I acquired knowledge about the world, from our father at the dining table. My father used to travel a lot. Nearly for 21 years he was in Bombay (now Mumbai) and was an active worker of the then Congress Party. He used to work very close with Mahatma Gandhi, Rajagopalachari, Sardar Vallabahi Patel, Ashok Mehta and others. During those times, there was an organization called Volunteer Guards. My father was the Captain of the Guards.
AR: This was before (Indian) Independence.?
KPS: Yes. It was before.
AR: Sir, was your father in the Independence Movement?
KPS: Yes, very much! Later, he was involved with the INA of Netaji Subhash Chandra Bose. Probably because he came from such a background, several interesting events happened at my home. At that time my birth place, Sasthamangalam was a conservative area predominantly of the Nair community. Some castes were treated as untouchables, like the Pulaya community. Caste Hindus would not entertain the so-called low castes. Having associated with Mahatma Gandhi my father could not tolerate this. On arrival from Mumbai, my father did two noble things. One, I would call as a revolution and the other was a reformation. That is, for the first time in our house at Sasthamangalam, a Pulaya woman (a scheduled caste woman) was inducted as a cook. My mother did not object to this, which surprised me. It may be because my father was reasonable and was very determined. However, people around us reacted negatively. This act, though should have created a lot of commotion did not produce the expected furious reactions. Later, it occurred to me that superseding all social laws there existed an eternal moral law. With this one act, most of the people in my father’s family dropped off their caste-consciousness. This Pulaya woman was a very intelligent person. Her name was Paachi. She was very neat and tidy and had other good resources both as a cook and as a person. May be because of this, everyone in the family liked her. We liked her family also as a whole as most of her children were like her. Even today, her eldest daughter is doing the cooking and cleaning at my younger brother’s (Dr. Chandra Prasad Sreedhar) house. The reformation of my father started with the introduction of Cricket to South Kerala. He collected a few youths to start the Sasthamangalam Cricket and Arts Club. My father could usher in many reformations through the Arts Club. It helped to bring many young artists and writers to the forefront. To everybody’s dismay my father kept away from the then Sasthamangalam Nair Service Society(NSS) Karayogam, not because the NSS practiced any apartheid but he felt that the organisation would curtail his freedom. My father’s eldest brother was the President of the NSS Karayogam then. He was a not only a great scholar but a Govt. Secretary also. The drastic views of my father and the sudden implementation of the same took everybody by surprise. The perceived opponents were caught unaware. My father considered his not joining the NSS as a great achievement.
AR: But... why is it that not joining the Karayogam was considered a great achievement?
KPS: Had he joined the NSS Karayogam, he would have been seen as a Nair only and would not have been recognized by other castes. Sasthamangalam NSS Karayogam was better than many other Karayogams. The members might have been waiting for a change but did not have the necessary leadership, which my father supplied.
Hence, from the day my father arrived, many taboos that obstructed the social development, withered automatically. The youngsters received the transformation with enthusiasm. They threw away their caste and religious consciousness and started developing a cosmopolitan outlook. My father suddenly became a leader of the youth and they needed only his encouragement and guidance. Urchins and rowdies transformed at his instance. My father encouraged some of them with good muscle power to develop into fast bowlers in the Sasthamangalam Cricket Club. Later one of them, Mr. Manikanta Kurup, became a left-handed pace bowler and played the Renjith trophy inter state competition cricket match. He once even took the wicket of the then West Indies opening batsman, Mr.Hunt when he came for a visit. Thus, my father bought in a renaissance among the youth. My father used to catch hold of those who might have become otherwise vagabonds and gave them a focus to bring out their misguided and hidden talents. He used to lead them with love and firmness to develop their personality. My father not only used to travel a lot, but also used to tell us the ancient history and modern trends of many countries. Our knowledge about the world was greater than many of our contemporaries because of him.
AR: Your father’s name, sir?
KPS: My father’s name was Dr. P. S. Nair. As his name was already on record, he could not throw away his caste surname. Thus, he saw to it that the names of his children should not bear the caste name. Normally my name should have been “S. Krishnan Nair” but as you know, my name is different today.
AR: Sir, your mother?
My father’s family members had more similarities than differences but my mother’s family was just the opposite. Hers was a very versatile family. It had people starting from ordinary laborers to the highest intellectuals. If you consider my mother’s family, you need not have to go to any place for any specimen you need. Did you want to see a good teacher? Mother’s family had one. If you had to see someone in a very deplorable condition there, it was. There were revolutionists, army chieftains, police officials, and people in the Indian Administrative Service etc. G.P.Pillai, my grand mother’s uncle was the first Barrister at Law from London in the Travancore princely state. His portrait was at the Victoria Jubilee Town Hall at Trivandrum until recently. Sir C.P.Ramaswamy Iyer, the then powerful Divan of Travancore, expelled the barrister for writing against the Divan in the media. If my siblings and I had anything special, it is due to the world of knowledge given by our father and the mental potentialities we inherited from our mother.
AR: To put in computer terminology, your mother gave the hardware and father gave the software for your development. Is not it?
KPS: Yes…very much!
AR: Mother’s name, please.
KPS: G.V.Rajamma.
AR: Sir, your father was a medical doctor, or?
KPS: Yes.. medical doctor. He had a diploma equivalent to an ‘LMP’ (Licentiate in Medical Practice) from Dhakka University. He also had some kind of a mysterious training at the hands of one “Pandit Tara Nath” at Thungabhandra. This, I guess, was more or less a spiritual training and healing about which my father spoke only very little but practiced much.
AR: So, no specialization and super specialization etc. Is not it?
KPS: No specialization. My father passed out from the Dhakka University. Today, I think it is in Bangladesh.
AR: Your date of birth, sir?
KPS: 25th May,1944.
AR: About your wife, sir.
KPS: My wife is Mrs. Latha K. Prasad. She was born and brought up in Trivandrum, but her family came from Thrissur. She is a B.A. Economics graduate. She does not hold a job outside. Actually she got employed in a bank. As I had a very clear idea that my children needed their mother in their formative years, I requested her not to accept the job. When the children are grown now, she is helping our neighborhood children with their studies. She is a popular teacher now. We have two grown up children. Both are girls and are married. One of them has done her M.Phil. degree in Psychology at the University of Kerala, Trivandrum, and the other had passed her Psychology M.A. degree and held the first rank. My elder daughter is Lakshmi and the younger one is Nitya.
GM: About your siblings…
KPS: Umm… My siblings… My sister is the eldest. She is married to a Nuclear Scientist of BARC, Mumbai. Now, my brother-in-law is retired and settled with my sister at Sasthamangalam. The second is I. The third one is Dr. Chandra Prasad Sreedhar. He is retired as Professor from the Institute Management in Government, Trivandrum. His interest was in Organizational Psychology. My youngest brother is Dr. Jayadev Sreedhar. He is six years younger to me. He took his Ph.D. in Polymer Chemistry. He was in the Vikram Sarabhai Space Centre. I believe he opted for a voluntary retirement. I have great admiration and sympathy for him. My admiration is because he is an original thinker and great teacher. He has invented several astonishing things but none has seen the light of the day. My sympathies are with him because he remains a dreamer. Fortunately, he is now putting sincere efforts to cultivate the scientific temper in children. Presently, he is into using Nano technology to medical science.
GM: About your hobbies, sir…
KPS: My original hobby was painting; oil painting. It fizzled out after my M.A. course because of lack of time. Usually, I give my paintings as presents to my relatives. Hence, there are only one or two now left with me. While talking about hobbies, may be because of the inspiration my father gave, until recently, cricket was also my hobby. I was an opening batsman and an off-spin bowler.
AR: When did you play cricket the last time, sir?
KPS: About twenty years ago.
AR: And never played after that?
KPS: After that I never played. After TV telecast of cricket came, I used to watch it. Now, I rarely watch Cricket in TV. This is because the sportsman spirit of those old timers is lost. Now they say stupid things like ‘the killer instinct’! This pains me deeply.
AR: Yes, it was seen as if it were a war, when India and Pakistan played cricket.
KPS: The newspapers also describe it as a war. Recently I experienced real pain when Anil Kumble took ten wickets, he was described a ‘silent assassin’! That means this gentle man is killer! This is not the language of cricket. My father taught us to go to the bowler who took our wicket to shake hands with the bowler. Cricket used to be a gentle man’s game.
AR: Isn’t it this the reflection of the cut throat competition spirit of the whole society?
KPS: It is the reflection of the competitive spirit of the society and mind you, we are spending large amounts to see these idiotic competitions. Cricket has become a business. I always felt that unlike other games, cricket is a game that reflects the personality of the individual. That is why I specifically referred to Cricket, but the phenomenon is common to all sports and games now.
Let me tell you one thing more. There is nothing in the world that I did not like. I know something about everything. One reason for this is my youngest brother himself. He used to show us that there is a science behind everything. When he convinced me of this, I began to like all subjects. I will tell you a recent experience. I have not entered the stock market. I thought that it was all fraud. My brother told that there is the science psychology in it. Then only I realized that stock market is also one kind of behavior. When I visited a bookshop, I found a book called ‘The Psychology of the Stock Market’. A Psychologist wrote it. I understood many interesting thing from it. Now, I like stock market now without involving in it. However, it helped me to treat a number of people who suffered addiction and depression as they got deeply involved in it.
AR: In which subjects you have gone deep, other than psychology, sir?
KPS: Certainly in Philosophy.
AR: Learnt it academically or..?
KPS: Yes, academically. The desire to know what was beyond this mundane existence was there in me. However, I did not know what I was looking for. It was then that I got admission to Philosophy in the University College, Trivandrum. At that time, to my great luck, there were three inspiring teachers. One was Professor H. J. Saunderaraj from Coimbatore, Tamil Nadu. I still remember that only two of us attended the classes. Others either used to quit the class or slept in the classroom. Nevertheless, for the two of us they took the class and that also very effectively. Professor H. J. Saunderaraj taught us Western Philosophy from Descartes to Kant. Great souls like Leibnitz ,Berkeley, David Hume, John Lock and many more came alive in the class room. When there was some understanding about truth and untruth, about life and existence each day we experienced a fourth dimension of reality. There was a paper called ‘theory of knowledge’ especially of Bozanque. When I learnt all those, even my dimension of thinking changed. Later when I wanted to pursue the study of Philosophy, my beloved professor prevented it and asked me to take Psychology for according to him had I pursued Philosophy, I would not be able to win my daily bread.
When I joined for my M.A.degree in Psychology, I found the subject interesting. I had a special liking for Abnormal Psychology. During the course and also when I pursued the post graduate Diploma in Medical and Social Psychology, I could easily adjust with the emotionally disturbed. This may be because of my childhood experience. My primary education was at a school across the oldest mental hospitals in Kerala. During those times, there were no water taps in the schools. The only one available was at the mental hospital. Hence, we little children used to go to the hospital compound for drinking water. Harmless patients used to be in the compound to help the hospital caretakers to help them. When we enter the compound, these so-called “mad people” used to come and hug us saying, “this is my child” etc. They would not let us go for some time. We used to be frightened at first used to scream. Later, we got used to it and started taking it as a play. We the little ones realised that they would not hurt us in any way. This was an experiential realisation that the so-called abnormal people not dangerous especially to children. My desire to know the abnormalities of these people might have sprouted then. However, I am not sure. Anyhow, when Prof. Saunderraj pushed me to Psychology, I started learning Psychology passionately. After my M.A. degree course, I got admission for further studies in the National Institute of Mental Health And Neuro-Sciences (NIMHANS) where I learnt Clinical Psychology. When I came passed out of NIMHANS, I got an opportunity to work under Dr. A. Venkoba Rao an eminent Psychiatrist of Madurai Medical College. Later I came to Department of Psychology, University of Kerala in 1970. Then onwards, for the last 34 years, I worked there as Lecturer, Reader and Professor.
AR: And… what about Eastern Philosophies?
KPS: Ever since my childhood, I became aware of Eastern Philosophies. My paternal uncle, whom I referred to earlier, was a great a thinker. He used to deliver speeches at schools and at his house. However, my information about Philosophies of the east was piece meal. I could not integrate the vast ocean of knowledge until I learnt Western Philosophies. Then everything started falling into order. During that time, I started reading anything that came on my way. I remember to have read the contemplations of the Indian philosopher Charvaka (the materialist), and the ‘Advaitha’ philosophy of Adi Sankara. I also read the contributions of all those between these two. Later I read Osho Rajanish. Because of these, my perspective regarding life and attitude in general changed. Thus my first love is, even now, Philosophy.
GENERAL
GM: Sir, what is your advice to the public on how to maintain a better mental health?
KPS: I myself, I am not in the pink of mental health. Then how can I advise others. Nevertheless, I would venture. Please consider this as bookish knowledge. The most important aspect of good mental health is to find out a simple way of living. As the Social Psychologists have pointed out all of us have needs and wants. We have to satisfy our needs. For example, when we are thirsty, we have to drink water, when we are hungry we have to take food. These are needs. Needs must be satisfied. The fallacy of modern living is converting our wants into needs. Then what happens is that our needs are never satisfied for wants are multiplied unconsciously. When wants transform into needs, we have infinite ‘needs’. When we feel that we have not satisfied our needs, a mental imbalance would develop. This is the pathology. One important pre condition for good mental health is to adopt a simple life.
The next important step is to be aware of Personal growth or sometime ago known as Personality development. Personal growth can occur only if a person has a healthy body. This is largely ignored in modern educational settings and in life in general. One must be told to look after one’s body. The most prominent step in this direction is to eat a balanced diet. One must learn to avoid stress food. Once the body is fit, consider the nature of our mind. Mind, which is a myth, is now ruling the world. Mind is often the troublemaker. As said earlier, understand the needs, define them and keep the mind steady. Let it not run around all that we desire. We should keep our intelligence alert as only intelligence has the capacity to discriminate. It can decipher what is required and what is not, those to be accepted and rejected, those to be wanted and not wanted. It is necessary that we initially experience dichotomies and dualities. Intelligence brings these to the mind. Eventually we should transcend dualities by understanding that the opposites are not contradictions but complementary. Personal integration starts with this.
So also, as far as possible, we must avoid unnecessary competitions. Competition to this degree is very unnatural. Presently we cannot live without competition. So, compete wherever necessary. Develop a special ego for meeting the present competition. However, do not forget to develop its opposite; the mentality of cooperation. In the former, one is fighting with someone and in the latter one is cooperating with some one, probably with the same person. Then it becomes a play. There will not be any poison stored in the mind.
It is also necessary to know the nature of the mind. In my opinion there is nothing called a mind as an entity. It is an illusion. What we are referring to as mind is nothing but the rapid crisscrossing of thoughts in the form of words and images. The best proof is meditation. Meditation happens when one is beyond the play of words and images. This is known as ‘no mindedness’ or ‘the void’. The consciousness that one experiences at this stage is claimed to be the reality of oneness. It is beneficial to have frequent excursions to this core of the personality, as it is beneficial to all the other states of consciousness called - wakefulness, dreaming and sleeping.
Another important aspect of personal growth is to develop service mindedness. Presently even children are taught to be selfish. They do not have mentality to cooperate. Service mindedness is completely lost by the time these children come out of their classes. Modern education appears to imbibe competition and not cooperation. Children need only to compete and get the first rank. This was not so in our childhood days. Some reward awaited a child who showed cooperation. At least while making a school garden children used to cooperate. There used to be no discrimination between the son of the Government Chief Secretary and the son of a labourer. Both used to be treated identically. This used to foster a sense of belongingness and humility along with dignity of labour. Today a child is rewarded if he studies well at school. Parents and teachers are not bothered about the personal growth of children. The net result is anxiety and depression in children. What a pity!
The next important thing is to have a feeling of self-worth. This is conspicuous by its absence these days. Self worth leads to self-esteem and self-confidence. To attain these one should acquire certain skills. The first thing among these is communication skills irrespective of the language one speaks. This includes all competencies, from individual conversation to mass communication. So also, presently it is necessary that one should know basic thing regarding plumbing, sanitary work, electrical work and painting the walls of the house etc. everything that is useful for house maintenance. In the olden days, they used to say with a negative tone that some one was a “Jack of all trades and master of none”. Now, we have to rephrase it. You should become ‘Jack of all trades and master of some’. Do not think that others would say that you’re putting your head into everything. One should know something about everything. This I wish to call the ‘survival kit’. If one acquires this, one will not have inferiority feelings or complex, because, wherever you go, you know something about everything. If we acquire social skills from childhood onwards, our mental health would surely strengthen proportionately.
Now, I am coming to the spiritual… the belief that there is an all-pervading power in the world, an energy that is immutable and eternal. This is important. I am saying this because; we have a variety of responses. The first response is the reflex response. The second is the conditioned response. The third is the social response. There is a cultural response also. Along with these, we need something called the faith response. The faith response helps in our survival. The reason for this is that only humans have this state of imperfection. For example, a cat brings forth its babies. In whatever way the mother brings them up they grow up as perfect cats. In the case of animals, perfection is automatic. However, the human child does not become a perfect (wo)man. Whatever perfection (s)he has reached is partly due to the upbringing. No human being becomes perfect. We can point out that there is still scope for growth. Thus, being human is unstable. Human life is a never-ending evolution. What I meant was not the Darwinian evolution. Human beings are going through an evolution in the domain of the mind. Today’s me can become a better me tomorrow. Human life is a constant challenge. Therefore, we need a goal. The goal must be a perfect one. Perfection is a model. Whether that model exists or not, with that model firmly in mind we should approximate to the model. Every country has a model. In many places it is in the shape of their religion. Religion mostly is a set of practice. Spiritual attainment is the aim of these practices. The present tragedy is that people practice religion and appears to have forgotten spirituality. It appears as if the end is forgotten and the means is glorified. There is no harm in decorating the means to make them glittering rituals. Often what happens is that truth is forgotten in the glitter. We can keep a model as the symbol of spirituality. This is required, but the model should not be mistaken for the real. It is to be remembered that religion and spirituality are two things. Spirituality is reality. Religion is nothing but a few rituals to remind us that spirituality exists. In all the ages great souls and scholars have come and showed us that we should not get obsessed with religious practices. Very many people do not know this, they pursue the rituals, and evolution to spirituality ceases. Obsessive visits to temples, mosques and churches are not spirituality. Spirituality is having a symbol of the ultimate as our temporary goal and moving towards it. If one practices this mental health would improve.
AR: Is there any specific reason for you to turn to Clinical practice, sir?
KPS: Yes. I always wanted to serve people. Hence, I wanted to become a medical doctor and to work in the rural areas. Clinical Psychology was the next best. Thus, I chose to be a one. Unfortunately, Clinical Psychology is yet to be simplified to suit the need of the rural people.
AR: It’s said that there are three major forces in Psychology – Psychoanalysis of Freud, Behaviorism of Pavlov, Watson and Skinner, and Humanistic Psychology of Maslow and others. Sir, you usually use the Behavioristic approach. Why is this so? Is it because that there is a teacher like role in it?
KPS: Although, Sigmund Freud has influenced me, I practiced and preached Behaviourism for two reasons. The public at that time was very confused about Psychology. Many believed that it was an occult science and that a psychologist could read the minds of people and held some special powers. I delivered a number of lecturers and wrote in the media regarding the nature of psychology. I also used to emphasis that psychology is a social science and closer to the more exacting sciences. I believe some of us who constantly influenced the public with speeches and articles should remove the unnecessary hallow around Psychology. Now, public understand it as a science.
AR: Was not that because the role as an academician and the role as a Behaviorist have much in common?
KPS: In the academics, Behaviorism helped me much in teaching students. I could move from the simple to the complex without confusing the students. Teaching Dynamic and Existential psychology were not a problem thus.
AR: Sir, when did you start clinical practice?
KPS. Clinical practice started from 1966 when the training in NIMHANS started. Independent practice started from 1970 when I came to the University of Kerala. I have worked as part-time Clinical Psychologist at the Kerala University Health Centre.
AR: What are the personal qualities required for a Clinical Psychologist, according to you, sir?
KPS. The therapist should have infinite patience, an ocean of sympathy, a deep empathy, and skills to make the client/patient communicate the inner turmoil by supplying appropriate words. In short one needs relatedness and love.
AR: Based on your own R&D of many years of counseling/therapy experience, you might have a personal theory? Would you please share it with us?
KPS: My personal theory is always changing. Presently, I follow the Eclectic approach. My personal theory is now mostly oriental. Usually I start with Behaviour analysis, looks at the problem Dynamically, searches for any existential ‘angst’ and guides my clients to the oriental which believes in the transcendental nature of human beings. I do emphasise that there is life after bodily death and the law of Karma. In chronic cases, Astrology comes as a consolation. The cardinal point is to tell people the impermanence of the body and the permanence of the Self. In India, this is not difficult to practice as culture supports it.
AR: You have published a compilation of your approaches in the Manasasthram monthly. Do you have any idea to publish more works, sir?
KPS: Yes, but I find it difficult to write down. I can easily type out. When the computer gets a good Malayalam letter software, I might do that.
AR: Your Guided Somato-Psychic Relaxation technique has been very useful for both the mentally disturbed and the normal. How did you get such an idea? Do you have any new idea for a similar tool?
KPS: Yes, several hospitals use the GSPR. It is used as an adjunct to pharmacotherapy and others as it supplies completeness to the treatment. More over, the technique guides the people to the experience of the transcendental for a few seconds. I used to practice Transcendental Meditation of Maharshi Mahesh Yogi. It gave me glimpses of other realities more imposing than that the one we experience now. My earlier attempts to understand Yoga of Pathanjali also helped me in a big way. GSPR is an amalgamation of all these. The superiority is its ease of practice every day. I have no idea for any new tool, but the present GSPR is undergoing some changes to produce greater impact.
AR: What’re your future plans?
KPS: Expand the horizon of GSPR by increasing the time for transcendence. To make people understand that it is not a panacea but a common denominator for treatment possibilities if not for our very existence.
AR: What’s the future of Psychology in general and Clinical Psychology in particular in India and Kerala?
KPS: Clinical Psychology has tremendous scope in India if do not confine to the western practices. Psychology has emerged as the science of the future. The scope for its use is unlimited.
AR: Do you really think that Psychological Disorders are increasing in Kerala? Why?
KPS: Yes, especially depressive disorders. In a set up like this where competition has become the order of the day, what else do you expect? People are not natural now.
AR: Have you ever experienced high stress? How did you overcome this? Do Clinical Psychologists experience high stress as part of their profession?
KPS: I did have periods of high stress. Oriental approach to life gave me solace and liberation. Many Clinical Psychologists experience high stress. This is primarily because they fight with Psychiatrists. Let them understand that Clinical Psychology is warmly accepted in other fields like Neurology, Pediatrics, Orthopedics, Geriatrics, Gynecology, Oncology, Cardiology and in all kinds of Surgery Preparations. Working with these specialists is more rewarding. In Psychiatry also, it is rewarding to work with Psycho-socially oriented Psychiatrists.
AR: What is the chance of a Psychologist becoming mentally ill when compared with a lay person? Once, in the USA, Psychologists were the professionals who were more prone to suicide than others. How do you see this?
KPS: Psychologists who acts as demy gods are going to be in real trouble. Humility alone can ensure sanity. It was Psychiatrists who were prone to suicide in other countries.
AR: You’re one of the Clinical Psychologists in Kerala trained in the USA on a Fulbright award. Please share the experiences you have there? What are the differences between the Psychological practices of here and there?
KPS: In USA, I happened to be attached to a department, which was doing research at the micro level. I wanted some experience at the social level. There was not enough time to jump from the micro to the macro. However, my experiences with some the great professors were very rewarding.
AR: Which role do you like the most – of a Clinical Psychologist or of an Academician? Why?
KPS: Both, because one was teaching and doing research at the level of theory and the other was dealing with the real human being. I loved both.
AR: As a parent, what child rearing practices you have followed.?
KPS: Unfortunately, the permissive. Probably because both my children were girls.
AR: Do you believe in Astrology, Palmistry? Vasthu? Fengshui? Etc? Why?
KPS: I do believe in Astrology, primarily based on my personal experience. But I do not believe in all astrologers as many of them lack inner purity which is an essential prerequisite to practice Astrology. I have not looked into Palmistry, Vasthu, and Fengshui, Reiki and Pranic healing in detail to comment upon them.
AR: Could you tell us what the goal of Personality development according to ancient India? Was there any kind of Psychotherapy in ancient India? If so, what was the goal of Psychotherapy then? Please enlighten us on these.
KPS: You said it. Yes, enlightenment was the goal of personality development. Goal of Psychotherapy was also exactly that. Enlightenment means the experiential realisation that we are one with the Universal Consciousness. There is no two. Experience of separation is due to ignorance. Enlightenment dispels separation and duality.
AR: Sir, are you satisfied as a Clinical Psychologist?
Yes, I am very happy.
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An Interview with
Dr.V.George Mathew (VGM)
By the www.psychology4all.com Team
[Ajan Raghunathan(AR), Vinod Divakaran(VD), and Ajeena B.Ajan(ABA)]
The language of the interview was mostly Malayalam, our mother tongue( I thought that this would be better as all of us would be comfortable with it). The interview was recorded on audio cassettes using a Sanyo walkman set. Later, it was played back and written down and then translated into English in such a way as to not lose the style of conversation and the atmosphere there, as far as possible. The interview was a little lengthy -- about two and a half hours. These excerpts have cut short only 15-20% of the actual interview.
The interview questions which we have planned before hand are marked in blue (other questions are not colored).
Comments, notes, or additions etc. that were added by me to clarify the meaning of the content are given within brackets.
3. [SECTION III: ACADEMIC/PROFESSIONAL] 5. [SECTION V: SPIRITUAL/PARAPSYCHOLOGICAL] [SECTION I: PERSONAL] AR: Let us start with some personal questions. Sir, when were you born? Where? And, please tell us about your parents and siblings.. VGM: Born at Trivandrum. Both parents came (to TVM) from Kottayam... Father came here to practise in the High Court. He came here as a representative of a law firm at Kottayam. Date of Birth is 14-01-1942. AR: Mother got any job? VGM: No. AR: About siblings, please... VGM: 2 brothers (both younger to me). One is here (at Trivandrum). The other is in the USA. He is a Psychiatrist. AR: First brother is --? VGM: Retired Assistant Professor of I.M.G, Trivandrum. He’s an economist.. specialized in Agricultural Economics. AR: Sir, when did your family come to Trivandrum? VGM: I think it was in 1940. I was born 2 years after they came here. AR:Sir, once you told me that one of your grandfathers wrote the history of Syrian Christians (in Kerala). Was it your paternal grandfather or maternal grandfather? VGM: Maternal grandfather. He attempted a history, but did not complete it. AR: His name, please. VGM:K.C. John. He was the Head Master of a school – M.D. Seminary High School, Kottayam. AR: Would you tell us when he wrote it? VGM: He didn’t actually publish it. He was very fond of travelling. In those days, there were no lodges at all. So, he stayed at the residences of those whom he knew. Thus, when staying with them, he would ask them about their history .... family history. Like ‘where did your family originate or come from? ... when & why ?’ etc.. Thus asking and asking, he collected a lot of information and wrote it down.. Thus, he got an idea of writing a book... continued his work for a long period... But, many people protested... because much of what he found out was not liked by many....... And one day one person, Mr.Z.M.Paret came to see grandfather. He told grandfather that he was writing a similar book and, requested grandfather to hand over all the materials collected by him if grandfather was not publishing. Grandfather gave all of them. Thus he (Paret) wrote the book, using perhaps also the material grandfather gave him.... But in that book there was nothing objectionable to anyone. He wrote in a way that everyone liked. He wrote first. After that, many others also wrote. Thus..., basically, my grandfather collected the material first... But grandfather didn’t have any strong intention to publish the book. He collected info during his travels,... in many note books... and at last, another person benefited by these...Grandfather did not publish any book. AR: What is your father’s name, sir? VGM: K.V.Mathew. AR: Full name, please... VGM: Usually nobody says it. Kalleda Maakkal Varghese Mathew. That is, (literally) there were two rocks & a mango tree stood between them. AR: Your mother’s name, sir? VGM: Sosa Mathew. AR: Sir, what is the name of your brother who is at Trivandrum? VGM: John. B.Mathew. AR: B means? VGM: Babu, His pet name was made his initial... AR: And the name of the other brother? VGM: R.Jacob Mathew. AR: R stands for? VGM: Roy. That is also a pet name AR: Ummm... but, sir, is there any reason for your not marrying? VGM: No such one reason. I thought, marriage would be a hindrance to my total life style. To me, freedom is very important. If I marry, I have to adjust to another person... Thought this was a bondage.... AR: Now... how do you feel this life.. sir, VGM: I’m very happy... I can go whenever I like and come back whenever I like.... I enjoy this... [SECION II: GENERAL] AR: Sir, most of the Psychologists, I know, came to psychology MA through Psychology BA. I think, those who came from Science are rare. But you came from Physics. Sir, would you tell us why? VGM: .. At the time I was studying, there was no graduate level Psychology course at all. So, a lot of Philosophy people came.... and... all other subjects were equal... not only me, but Dharmangadhan also came from Physics. AR: Did your learning in Physics help learning Psychology ?. VGM: Yes. From my childhood days .... 8-9 years onwards.... I was interested in the para normal.... AR: Would you find any particular reason for that? VGM: I had a philosophical temparament... and.. then....,my father admitted me to a Hindi school. Oh... yes.... independence.... we got independence 5 years after I was born... after independence, everybody thought that English would be abandoned and Hindi would come. To South Indians, Hindi would become a handicap... So, to learn Hindi, father got me admission to a Hindi school. The Hindi teacher had a great interest in yoga... a friend of his ran a yoga school in the same building... Thus, I started to learn yoga also... thus... every Saturday we had meetings... in the meeting... Hindi was there... we had to make speeches in Hindi... and then there were discussions on yoga.. Thus I got interested in yoga, sidhis etc.. And these discussions often went philosophical also. AR: This was at what age, sir? VGM: I don’t remember correctly... but... may be it was when I was 10-12 years old... then.... this continued till I passed out my S.S.L.C. around 10 years, may be. All these 10 years, I attended the yoga meetings. Then... there were discussions and demonstations on yogabhyasa. From 10-12 years old onwards I have been practising asanas, pranayama, meditation and the like. Then, I was interested in knowing more... about these... Those days, in our group, there were highly educated and inquisitive people even those with Ph.Ds were there... Engineers were there... AR: Like a satsang...? VGM: Yes.... a satsang... they had scientific inquisitive minds.... and in this way my mind also was shaped... then.... when I was studying for P.D.C, I understood that there is a subject called Para Psychology and researches were going on in it... so... after my P.D.C., I inquired about where Psychology was being taught. Then I understood that therewas a M.A. level course in Psychology in Kerala University and that for admission at B.A. level any subject would do. So, in order to learn about the reality of the physical world, I took Physics... Physics & Math... and after that I came to Psychology. AR: Sir, when did you recognize that you’ve a philosophical leaning? VGM: That it was philosophical interest, I understood only later... when I was in the primary classes itself, I thought...’is this object real?....if others and I didn’t see it, then..., would it still be there like this?.... ‘ and the like. AR: In primary classes itself... VGM: Yes... once when I was walking and intensely thinking like this, I hit my head against a post... my attention had gone away from the road.... then... I didn’t find it unusual at all.... I thought, everybody thought like this... but later I understood that at that age nobody would think like this... So, I had a philosophical temperament from early childhood.. I understood it only later... AR: Sir, I think that you are the first among Psychologists in Kerala who started using PCs.... VGM: No.... Actually it was not PC... actually I am one of the first persons who started using computers... because, at Trivandrum, ... or probably in South India, computers came at TERLS (Thumba Equatorial Rocket Launching Station). It was a Russian computer....Minsk.... In 1968 or so they sent a circular asking those who are interested in using computers to attend a 3-day orientation course. Although it was circulated in all University departments, only two persons – Kalyana Raman and I – took interest. We went there and did the 3-day orientation course. Thus we understood what a computer is etc... now... it is very interesting to retrospect.... There were several large almirahs filling almost the entire hall... It (the computer) has only 6K memory ... now, we would start laughing if someone says this.. Then...... first there was a demonstration... to find the sum of all prime numbers from 1 to 100... Then.. Kalyana Raman calculated it by hand... by adding... then the computer would also calculate...Kalyana Raman said that the computer had defeated him. I remember this.... But it took a lot of time... (The programmer) showed us how to write a program to add the prime numbers from 1 to 100... I don't remember through what device they fed in data. Puch cards perhaps... so... I started then.... We would take the calculations (for the Psychology department) there... we would write all the steps of the computational process and take it with us there... There was programmer there... We would consult with him and write the program. Then, we would give a test problem. We should know its solution... a simple problem.... If the answer was correct, we would submit our original problem... Then we would get its result.... Like that for many years we spent....after that the next machine came. and at last the PC came. In between, several generations.... we used all these... AR: Sir, you said MINSK.... What does that mean? VGM: It's a Russian word... Don't know its meaning... AR: Sir... why you went to learn computers even though others didn't...? is there any particular reason for it.. or... VGM: One thing was that I got Physics & Math background... I was considered the Research Methodology specialist in the department... Everyone came to consult me... So... having a device (for calcuation) would make matters easy.. Otherwise I had to do it by hand... Mechanical calculators were also there... this was used at first. later an electronic calculators also came..Then IBM data processing machines using card input. After some time this MinsK came. So, ... I thought, if I learned this it would be easy for me to calculate... then.... later when they first announced a course on programming, Kalyana Raman and I went to learn it.. It was FORTRAN... Now also I know only this... It is sufficient for our purposes... That is why I did n't have the motivation to learn another programming language... learned FORTRAN II, III, IV etc. AR: By the way... when we were taking the Holigrative Walk, saw a lot of plants. Did you plant all these, sir? VGM: A few grew by themselves...I grew others .... to look like a forest...Then this sankupushpam etc.. grew by themselves... Most of these I grew... AR: Did you plant medicinal plants...? VGM: Medicinal plants... most of them were given to me (by someone).... I did not throw it away.. AR: Flowering plants or ... what do you like the most...? VGM: I like flowering plants also... then ... I also like creepers.... AR: In Kerala, there are a lot of suicides now... What is the reason for this, according to you, sir? VGM: Um.... Keralites have a temperamental disposition.... that is,... Inertia is a little too high... so... those who have high Inertia...moderate , Activation.... and some Stability have greater chance to commit suicide, usually... Thus...... In general, the Inertia is a little high for all Keralites.... won't allow others to advance.... and... they cannot advance themselves at all...and at the same time won't allow others to prosper also.. then.... there is terrible unemployment and financial problems.... so... this situation and predisposition together.. causes greater number of suicides... this is due to the lack of a proper (political) leadership....if people's energies were channelised positively, within this time Kerala would have developed greatly... But... the energies were channelised negatively and destructively... strike etc.... our politics itself is all negative activity... to obstruct... to stop... to cut down... And there is no party to encourage anyone positively... AR: In your opiniion, sir, what can leaders do positively...? VGM: First, on the very first day of independence leaders should have told people that if they (people) find that the wages are not enough they should resign and go out... or.. start something on their own... or join some other company... And not sit there holding flags.... that this is an indecent thing... This was to be communicated to the workers... but... instead, the leaders are specialized in inciting strikes by these workers... asking for higher wages... this is a camouflaged begging...destroys self-respect totally... If once someone goes for this kind of collective aggressive begging, he can never do something positive... He has become negativistic then.... He has been converted to a permanent beggar...thus... these politicians have made them the tools for their selfish interests...Destructive tendency... So no economic growth here. .... What was there was destroyed.... In my childhood days, when we went to Kottayam, we saw cashew nut factories at Kollam... Then, when we go to Alleppey, through the river, you know how many boat fulls of coir going and coming... how many people lived by it... completely destroyed... like that how many industries... those were there before the Independence. Our politicians had destroyed these and they created nothing... AR: Had we got a better politics, it would have been great...? VGM: Of course..when we say politics.... people think that it means strike.... In no other country it is like this. Only in India it is like this... politics means strike, obstruction... then...bandh... hartal... AR: What are the strengths and weaknesses of Kerala as a society..? VGM: Temparamentally, our strength is that we have a mixed temparament. We have some part of all the good things. In fact it was easy to strengthen these positives. Then, we have a good climate. If it were a 5 degree lesser, it would have been the ideal. Eventhough a little hot, when we consider other parts of the world as a whole, we have a good climate. Then.... we have no extremes... no terrible cold or hot climate. And because of this, Keralites have some significant Stability. Then we are racially very mixed... this is also a very positive point..Had we got proper leadership, we would have come up as world's best people. The problem was our leadership was completely negativistic. AR: Even though we got these strengths, why our leadership became this much negativistic? That is.... we have mixed temparament, racial mixing, .... VGM: Two reasons are there. First, The independence movement was one that occurred in the whole of India. After independence, the first independent government should have told people not to continue with civil disobedience, strike etc. If necessary, they should have made laws preventing strikes, etc. But, instead, they did nothing. Thus, as part of India, Kerala also followed that all India policy. It was a Congress governent here also. So, they could not take a different policy here.. But... when we got independence, they took 'let people do anything' attitude. ...Second, our attitude towards work was wrong. Right attitude towards work means... give work to the one who does it the best. If he becomes lazy, fire him and hire another... at any point of time, take the one who does the work the best. Only then people give respect etc. to work. But the reservation policy.... now, we might think that it was a very good thing... But it was this that competely destroyed our work culture. Because work has become something that is being gifted to some.. This made everyone beggars. Now a days, even for Vice Chancellorship, " 'I'm from this or that community and so I should be made the VC." they demand.Reservation for women, for the financially backward, for the handicapped. Reservation of seats in legisltive bodies.The very notion of proportionate representation is morbid. Will you have seats proportionately reserved for morons and mentally deranged people also ? ....All these destroyed the work culture here. Nobody here originally asked for this job reservation. It was simply burdened upon us. these ....upper caste people... I think that it was a move to show other castes down. And no caste is going to progress because of this. In the public sector, only a small portion got benefited by reservation... but the community as a whole becomes psychologically enslaved. When a student goes to school.... he goes with 5kg books and 20 kg caste complex.....some one said. And that is true also. Thus, ...that it didn't bring a good work culture, I think, is the main defect. AR: Is this true with both the Centre and the state...? VGM: The policies the Centre puts in.... the state has to go in the same line.... So,... Sree Narayana Guru had said about this very clearly... that caste consciousness would affect our intelligence negatively... He had understood it then itself... thus... instead of 'do not ask about caste, do not say caste...', this job reservation policy came just its opposite....In the university, when I joined, there was no reservation system and hence only very little caste based thinking from the part of the teachers, then...From the very day job reservation was introduced in the university, teachers started discussing the caste of students... Everyone started seeing caste as important... because, when a student passed out, he would apply there (for a position). This is how people think. thus... our thinking was totally affected by this... AR: Did Dr. Ambedkar ask for reservation? VGM: No. I don't think he did. AR: Then how came this idea? Was it Nehru? VGM: The Nehru governenment. There is no doubt about it...Perhaps a not so counscious thought and intention to put down the people considered lower caste before independence. Now that independence got, it is impossible to suppress others in other ways. So, they would have thought 'let them continue to have this label'.... 'they are lower to us that is why they are given reservaton and then we are higher than others'... This was a method they used to continue their supremacy...That is what I think. And ... not because that they were dying to see others progress. ... At one time, may be in a discussion in the UGC subject panel or so... one old gentleman said... "the reservation was started by the British". Then, somebody asked him when they started it. He said it was in the Parliament, just before Independence. But it was a reservation for the tribals in the Lok Sabha. It is an entirely different kind of resrvation. It is for the representation in the legislative body. otherwise, they won't get representation.... This and a job reservation are not the same. ..... This man knows that there is something wrong with the reservation policy.. so it was not brought in by us... and he wanted to assign its responsibility to the British. He got a guilt feeling, it is clear, regarding the reservation policy. That means, this was not brought in with entirely pure intention. AR: In America, the Indo-Americans have .... VGM: No. No job reservation. But they have their own geographical area reservations. At their place many laws of other places do not apply. For example, gambling is not allowed other than at this place. So the gamblers come there to gamble. So... only such reservations only are there. No job reservation. When at one time the govt. was thinking about this, the Negroes said that they do not want this. Because they said it would hurt their self-respect. So, they themselves are against job reservation based on labelled backwardness. AR: But here others also say they want job reservation. VGM: Yes....they say they all want. Thus all are made beggars... So, our work culture has become like this and thus there is no economic progress here. Thus there is no job for any community at all. AR: But..when everybody gets reservation, reservation would disappear.. VGM: (laughs..) Now they want economic reservation. Thus by claiming to be a member of some disadvantaged group, I demand a job that I do not really deserve, denying the job to a person who is capable of doing it better than me. In fact, what is required is... a job should be given to the person who can do it the best. If he becomes lazy for some reason, or if his work is not satisfactory, and if there is another who does the job better, he should be appointed in place of the first. Then work would become efficient. Why America progressed this much? Anyone from any part of the world can work there. World's best people work there. They don't say 'Here we have one (to do the work) and so you should not come here.' Best jobs were done by the best people. So, economy developed and now there one gets $ 8 as minimum wages. For one hour. This means Rs.400 approximately. Thus there is such an affluence there because of their work culture. In India, one gets only Rs.3000 per month even if he works hard from 9 am to 11 pm. But people are not even getting such jobs here. And people don't like start anything on their own. Someone else should give them job. Because here there is no proper environment to start anything. If someone starts something, all others would join together and destroy it. AR: There is a joke among the unemployed: "I have to get an employment to take leave and stay at home." VGM: (laughs) [SECTION III: ACADEMIC/PROFESSIONAL] AR:Usually, those who have learned Psychology turn to Clinical Practice. But sir, you turned to theory development. Is there any particular reason for this? VGM: I came to Psychology with a research mind. I was never interested in routine practice. AR: Sir, what are your important theoretical achievements? VGM: Holigrative Psychology. AR: Do you see it as the zenith of your achievement? VGM: Yes. It is. AR: Now... Does anyone practise based on Holigrative Psychology? Any Psychologists...? AR: You are one of the pioneer Para Psychologists in Kerala, sir.... VGM: I don't think anybody else here has such an interest (in Para Psychology). AR:Sir, tell us about your achievements or experiences in Para Psychology. VGM: A lot of experiences.. But I did n't publish much. But I have given presentations in many seminars. And this, ... I know, had influenced even very well known Para Psychologists. AR: (Have you) done any experiments? VGM: Done many experiments. AR: For example...? VGM: Namboothiri of Kolenchery Medical Mission Hospital and I.... Namboothiry is very interested in this. He was here for two years.... Many days, we did many experiments together. AR: For example...? VGM: For example .... Then I was the resident tutor of the Hostel…… AR: Sorry. Which hostel? VGM: The Men's Hostel. I was the resident tutor. Those days,.... most days, we would go to the terrace... then .... there were a lot of stray dogs on the ground.... So, ... we select a dog and would stare at it. Then, that dog would turn back and look up at us. This was successful many times and only very rarely it became a failure. Then, when people were walking (through the road), we stare at them.... Like this, both of us have done many experiments. AR: ...And most of these experiments resulted in the way you thought it would be...? VGM: Yes... Most of such experiments done by Namboothiri & I were successful. And.... both of us were often surprised by this. Then.... we have done very complicated experiments also. But these were not much successful. AR: One example... VGM: One example... That.... what we started then I continued for a long time. That is, . we send a message to ourselves from the future. that is... after a 10 year period, I will have more knowledge and wisdom.... After 10 years... if I send a message to myself, it would be very useful (to me now). For example, say, I've to take a decision.... In the 70's I had an idea to resign the job and start an institute -- a Psychology Institute... I discussed it with many. Then, Nambothiri was there... I discussed with many.... Then suddenly this idea came to my mind. After 10 years, I would have more information. Sometimes, the Psychology Institute would have been started... Or, I would have decided against the idea. So, ... if the I after 10 years could send a message to the I of this time, it would be very valuable. Thus Namboothiri and I decided ... that is, on every important date, say on December 31st night 11 pm, I would sit in a receptive state. If a message comes from somewhere we should receive it. So, every December 31st at 11 pm, I decide to send a message to myself. This may be to the past or to the future. I would sit in a receptive condition.... Then I could receive a message send by the me after 10 years. So, every December 31st at 11pm, I sit in a receptive condition and send a message.... first I would receive it... then I would send it... If we do like this, we would get some significant information.... I got the idea from a film -- Time Machine. AR: Time machine by H.G.Wells? VGM: Time machine is by H.G.Wells. But a film by the same name is there. Whether it is based entirely on H.G.Wells's Time Machine, I doubt.... And.. this film..... A scientist is making a time machine. It was completed.... but there is a certain problem with the fuel... doesn't get solved... Then he got an idea... 'This problem is solvable. So, I would solve it one day. May be I have to wait for 5 years or 10 years for this. But.... the hypothesis is that time travel is possible....Then.... if I get a message from the future.... I could solve it now itself.' So this man told his assistants 'I am going to fly on a particular date....' Then they all asked, 'how are you going to fly? The fuel problem is not yet solved.' [A phone comes for VGM. He attends it and then returns..] 'When I have solved this problem from the future, I would send a message to this particular date or I would come by myself and solve it. So, today I've taken a decision... I would come from the future and solve this small problem.... I'm going to start time travel now by itself... ' The assistants said: 'there is some problem in this... this is not going to happen....' But, they set the experiment as he told them to. And he sat inside it. Then..... when they looked.... they saw him .... very old... with grey hairs, coming toward them. He came with something in his hands and did something. At this time, he's actually sitting inside the machine and watching all these also!.....The old man is also he himself... the same face... So....he himself came from the future and did something. Then suddenly the machine disappeared. His calculation was right. Because, he himself came from the future and solved it. After some "time" the machine reappeared again... thus he performs time travel.... when he returned... he knew all... knew the solution... everything... So, this is the story... Then .... on the assumption that we could send to ourselves messages from the future.... Thus... Namboodiri and I planned and did experiments. AR: Can we relate intuition with this (experiment)? VGM: Intuition is a simple term used by people for ESP . It is a layman’s term for metagnomy.... Intuition is layman’s usage... VD: Will intuition be right all the time? VGM: If it is ESP, it is right. But, if we include 'guess' also in the meaning (of intuition), it need not be correct. AR: Have you written any books..? VGM: Have written only one book: 'matham marxism manasasthram' (Religion Marxism Psychology) (Malayalam). Then ..... I wrote chapters in some books.... Wrote many articles.. AR: Who published the book, please...? VGM: Baby got an organization; 'Society of Psychologists for Social Action' based at Kozhikkode. SPSA (for short). (He published). AR:Any new books in the agenda? VGM: Most probably, Publishing Holigrative Psychology soon. AR: 10 years ago, it was very difficult to get an admission for M.A. in Psychology in Kerala University. But now it is known that many seats are left unfilled. How do you see this, sir? VGM: (I see) 2 reasons (for this). First, now Psychology courses are there at many places... Another reason .... now people have high interest in engineering.... more IT related courses.... So, many students go for these after PDC. Those who go for Arts and Science colleges are now diminishing in number. And even they rush into subjects that are helpful to them in learning IT.... That is why there is no rush for Psychology courses. AR: Sir, do you think that Psychology should be introduced at school level? VGM: Yes. AR: Do you mean that everyone should learn this or only at +2 level? VGM: In my opinion, this concept called Personal Growth.... or what I call Holigrative Psychology.... should be taught from first standard onwards, i.e., as a part of the Personal Growth training. That is, in my opinion, instead of as a separate subject, it should be included as exercises, meditation, life style improvement etc. required for their personal growth. [SECTION IV: ART/HOBBIES] VD:About your hobbies, sir.. VGM: If we set aside all these said things.... what interests me most is music. VD: Tell us more about this... VGM: Music.... the time I started learning Hindi, I started learning music also. Then.... my brothers & I have interest in music ..... and some aptitude also.... So... one of my uncles bought us a musical instrument, first. That day onwards, (I have been) learning music; have different musical activities.... But, my greatest interest is in music composing. Lately, I did one.. and it was a success. Daivadasakam (=[Malayalam] 10 verses on God)by Sree Narayana Guru. I composed a tune. Dr. Kurien sang it and recorded it. A lot of copies were sold out. It can be marketed in a big way, if we want to. But, the investor was not interested in marketing Daivadasakam alone. But everyone who heard the song liked it very much. VD: Have any future plans along these lines? VGM: Yes... We've a plan to select some other poems of Sree Narayana Guru and make it a cassette and to market it in a good way... The singer is the head of department of Psychology, S.N.College (Chempazhanthy, Trivandrum). So, he's a little busy now. So... he said he would go to Sivagiri and select some poems by consulting the Swamys there. But I am not taking any initiative for this. If he brings the poems, I'll tune them. Perhaps, this will happen soon. and.... The cassettes generally sold at the (Sivagiri) pilgrimage time .... got several poems in them. Even though in our cassette, only one poem was there, it was sold more than any other. We put it at two sales centres only. But, within a very small time, all copies were sold out. When the song was played through the mike, many people came and asked for it. Even though we said that there was only one song in the cassette, people would buy it. AR: Now... sir... who's interested in music more -- your father or mother? VGM: I got music from mother's side... Ma had some musical talent. Ma's sister had good musical talent. She used to sing... so, grandfather appointed a music teacher... with harmonium and all that... there's such a tradition in our community... thus... she learned Karnatic Music... But she also didn't sing in a formal setting. She used to sing in the kitchen... But I know.. because I'm in this field... that she was a good singer. But I never saw her sing formally. Neither did anyone tell like this. AR: So... two most important trait you got, sir, are : one, travelling a lot and the other music.... Both are from maternal side. VGM: Yes. AR: Then.... what did you get ... like this... from paternal side, please... VGM: Not anything in particular. To me it appears that... grand father had a dog... I often felt that I got its characteristics. Its characteristics means... it was not usually chained up, and if we did, it howled. . so, it was left free...It would disappear from home now and then. It would come back after a few days, weeks, and sometimes, after months. Then,,, when it came back after many months, all its hairs would have gone and it would be in a bad condition. Then, by staying at home and after regaining its health, it would again go for another journey.. and again it would return after a few months... Like that.... I've also a similar pattern. After months, I also go for a journey. When you go for a journey, there are difficulties... Then a few months after returning from the journey, I would again go for another. So... more than grand father, my character is similar to grand father's dog. AR:Some days ago, Ajeena asked me one question: 'how Mathew sir composes this music...'.. when she listened to Daivadasakam composed by yourself. I told her to ask it by herself and that is why she is also here. Now.... please answer... VGM: This.... there are two things. First is our input. Listen to a lot of songs. When we listen, a lot of ideas would come....Once we have listened, we won't think we would imitate another composition.... When we read a poem, ... think of a poem...., we would feel that its music should be like this or that. This occurs only if we got enough input in our minds. Then there is also a practice element. If a person who has never composed a song tries to compose one, it would be very difficult. I composed a song first at my Hindi school. It was very difficult.... Hindi teacher said: 'George Mathew, you have this music talent... Why don't you compose a tune for yourself and sing it?'.... Then I worked hard for a week to compose a tune. Then.... when doing for the first time, it will be very difficult. On the other hand, once we have composed a tune,... when we hear a new tune, we will think how this occurred to the composer's mind. Then we see in this way..Then.... we need some practice like that... When we listen to a new song, we would think how the composer arrived at that.... AR: .....then we can tune into that vibration.... VGM: ...can tune into that vibration. Then.... when we get a poem, we would think that we need a very original composition and not any imitation, and we sit with such an intention... and a very original tune comes. AR: It is said about A.R.Rahman that he takes more time to compose a song. This was said by the other Rahman –film star Rahman. These two are relatives. VGM: Is it? AR: Yes. I think the second Rahman married A.R.Rahman's sister... VGM: ....But... my personal opinion is ... this is applicable to every original work..... that the one we make after hard work need not be superior to one which was created quickly.... I composed Daivadasakam within seconds.... That day, Kurian told me that he wanted the tune for students.... So, I thought I should not work hard to create a tune for students because that is not required. Thus when Kurian phoned me to ask if I composed the tune, I said I did. But actually I didn't. Actually I had forgotten about that. Then, Kurian said he was coming to collect the tune. Thus I composed the tune within the time the reached here. Later, when Kurian said we would record this, I told him that I would create a new tune. But Kurian said this was enough and that everybody liked it. Then I said that I would make at least some variation.... for each stanza... or 2-3 variations at least... But Kurian didn't even allow that also. 'This is OK. This is very good.... because if there are many variations.... people would feel it difficult...' (he said). Thus because of Kurian this was recorded as such. ..... But,instead, if a tune was put after hard work, perhaps it would not have become a hit. AR: It seems like a time travel.... You first said you created the tune (when Kurian sir asked). VGM: Yes... (laughs...) VD: About film scripting..... VGM: I've interest in it also. In that...... when Adoor Gopalakrishnan started Chithralekha Film Society, I became a member. When Adoor Gopalakrishnan screens any film, he would give a lecture on it. I attended all these and thus I've an idea of how to produce an Art Film. Because of this, it is not difficult at all for me to write screen play. I had written dramas also.... So, sometimes I would write a film script. Many people came (to me for this).... but it didn't materialise for different reasons. VD: Acting..... VGM: Had acted... But it was at the Hindi school. Those days... every week there were dramas and other art forms. In many weeks, I did something.... sang songs, or acted in dramas,.... drama writing.... AR: Have you ever played any musical instruments, sir? VGM: What I've performed most is an instrument called Mandolin. VD: Why (did you) turn to Psychology even if you had interest in music and film direction? VGM: My main interest was and is Psychology itself. Although the name Psychology came later, I was interested in mind powers, limitations of the mind or possibilities of the mind etc. Had interest in music also. When I was at school, my ambition was to become a Film Music Director. But, my parents were against this. Because, these days, if you go for music as a profession, you cannot earn anything. All the music professionals I knew then were living a difficult life. The remuneration was very low. This, my parents also knew... So, when I passed out S.S.L.C, father prohibited strictly from going for musical performances etc. He said, it was only for leisure time and that P.D.C was important. But, had the current situation were there then, I would have gone for musical specialization. ... But I don't have any regret about this now. Because, Psychology is of high interest to me. AR: Any other art... VGM: I'm very interested in music. Then novel, drama.... I like comedies most. Wrote a few comedies also. And staged one of them at the University Senate Hall (Trivandrum) in the Decennial Celebration of Manasasthra Parishad. AR: Any drama published in book form? VGM: No. AR: Got the script of those dramas now also? VGM: Scripts are there. AR: Have you put it in your PC? VGM: No. At that time, there were no Malayalam fonts available. AR: But, now they are available. VGM: Now... Yes. AR: And sir, you yourself have got it now. VGM: Yes... Yes... AR: Have you any achievements from the side of arts? VGM: No such achievements... I have a lot of themes which can be made into novels, dramas or films. If I get enough time, I would write them down slowly. Have a feeling that it will be useful for people. AR: Most of these are Psychology related? VGM: Um. They're Psychology related. That is... I got it because of my career as a Psychologist. Many a time people would reveal to me their unusual experiences and personal problems etc. When I hear this, I think that these are more thrilling than novels... the life experiences of many.... So I noted down some of these... This has become a great volume now... Some of these are para normal... some are human dynamics... When we read novels, we think that what was said in it are improbable. We may feel these things(=experiences of people) as more improbable. But these really happened in many people's lives. [SECTION V: SPIRITUAL/PARAPSYCHOLOGICAL] VD: Now... let us go a little spiritual .... VGM: Um. VD: What is Pure Consciousness? VGM: Pure consciousness.... You can really never define it. Because, it cannot be compared with anything else. It is, in philosophy, called the absolute. Thus.... there's only one absolute. Cannot compare it with anything. All the rest are relative. What's not relative is the absolute. And that itself is pure consciousness. ..... Because, when we speak of definitions.... can only define it with something simpler than it. We've to break it into elements. Pure consciousness has no further break up. Thus, it cannot be defined at all. VD: I watched the program in Asianet (TV channel). In that, there was a question.... It was just like a soliloquy... 'What is reality?' But nobody attended to that question (in the program). So, I am putting that again. What's reality? Is it matter or consciousness? VGM: It is consciousness, of course. VD: So, conscious is reality. ... Then pure consciousness? .... say, love is there... then, what we call true love ... isn't that got when we search for it...? VGM: If spoken from the point of view of pure consciousness, love is of course unreal. (There's) no love there (=in pure consciousness). Then... there's no love in the absolute level... It's unitive. But if you want, you can say that there's (in it) a positive feeling or an absolute positivity. Sat chit anandam (Truth Pure existence Bliss). And not love, as this requires a subject and object dichotomy, etc. Once we speak about reality and then ask if there's love, then... we have to say that love is an illusion. AR: Sir, you said that reality is consciousness. Now.... how did you arrive at such a conclusion? VGM: Because.... Now Physics itself has reached the same conclusion. No argument (that matter is reality) exists now.... Only at Newton's time there existed an argument that matter was reality..... No need for us to reopen a conclusion reached by theoretical Physicists. VD: But it's heard Westerners still believe that material is the reality.... VGM: But not those academic Westerners who research on the ultimate reality. Ordinary people may believe differently. It's is part of their Rajasik temperament. Because, our philosophy and our temperament are related.. AR: ...Now... If we put away the proof by the Physicists, as a Psychologist, how do you prove this? VGM: Now, in modern science, really the concept of proving or of disproving are outdated. Now, instead, they only say 'evidence in support or evidence against.' AR: If that's so, what's the evidence in support... VGM: This.... A lot of arguments are there to say that consciousness is reality. One important argument is that, whatever statement we say -- even if we say that matter is reality, it is a statement. Such a statement can exist only in consciousness. Thus, if we don't have a consciousness, such a statement won't come at all. If one is to say that matter is consciousness, he can say this only if he has consciousness. But instead, if consciousness doesn't exist at all absolutely, such a statement itself would be absurd. (Suppose ) a person is saying an intelligent statement. Then he should have a consciousness. Then consciousness is the root of everything... Only when it exists, other things get validity. Otherwise we have to say that there is no truth at all.... Then we have to say that a statement is a particular configuration of electrons or matter. Then that should not be given any ultimate validity or value at all. So if the concept (called) truth, the concept rationality, the concept inference etc. are to have validity, there should be consciousness behind all these. So, we should say consciousness is reality. AR: But.... Biologists say that we have evolved from the ape. And.... they don't think that man is the last..... i.e., we would further evolve again.... let us say into a superman. Then, what he sees.... if we think from the level he could reach .... that is, .... can we reach that level.... that is.....what he perceives will be the same pure conscious(as we perceive now) or what? VGM: Pure consciousness is not really a perception. AR: Yes... Not perception.... But what I meant was that... VGM: Really, when we say pure consciousness, there is no subject-object dichotomy at all. That's, it is the total absence of the perceiver. It is independent of space-time. It doesn't change, at whatever time... One is not knowing it but he becomes it. It is 'The Reality'. AR: What I meant was ... Can the lower order animals realize...... VGM: The truth, i.e., pure consciousness is the same any time, any where. No change comes to it. Everything is the expression of pure consciousness. Whenever the mechanical process aspect ceases, then what exists is the pure consciousness. Even if it is a frog, or a dog or a man, pure consciousness exists. Only its apparent expression changes. Now even if man apparently evolved into something else there won't be any change for pure consciousness. AR: Is it not our thinking at this time.... VGM: No. Pure consciousness is not thinking.... AR: No... it is not... but.... VGM: may be the rational inference about it would change. Because, pure consciousness is an abstraction that comes after all our limitations have been shed. VD: Is it an experience? VGM: it is not an experience. But (if you want, you can say) it is the basis of all experience. When we speak of experience.... it is colored by the characteristics of the experiencer. Pure consciousness is independent of all these. That (=pure consciousness) the mind cannot know at all. It's not conceivable by the mind. In fact, pure consciousness exists also when the mind ceases to function.... Now it is based on how we define experience. When we speak about experience, there is an experiencer. Space-time is there...But in pure consciousness there is nothing. So, it's is better to say that it's not an experience. Pure consciousness is absolute flexibility permitting every apparent creation and mentation. [We all now drink mango drink] VD: About life after death ... VGM: When we speak about life after death, there is some difficulty, because we think from inside this space-time frame-work. This space-time is applicable only to the experiences in our physical body. When the gross body is destroyed, the space-time is different. So, to say that a potentiality exists, seems to be more correct... Because..... when we dream, we function in the astral level. Then the time, space and the nature of reality are all different. In dream, if we want, we can change the dream itself. Not like waking.... So... the laws of astral experience are different. Then... after this, there is a causal reality. There, even our identities are entirely different. There even our minds is overlapped with the minds of others. Our identity itself is different. So, our total being exists through many levels like these. There are qualitative differences among the existences of the physical body, astral body, and causal body. Thus.... when we speak of life after death, we think that we have a life like that in this space-time. But this is absurd.... so... first we should define what we are... then only we can rationally discuss about this (possibility of continuance).... But we can say that the total karma or mental quality of a dying person continues to find expression... VD: Do you believe in spirits, yakshi etc.? VGM: People see such apparitions. But there can be many interpretations about the nature of these. Many times, an apparitional experience occurs through the interaction of the person, the place and an emotionally significant event that had happened there. An apparitional experience is not like the experience (we have) when we see a person. When we see an apparition, those who are with us won't necessarily see it. Many times, it is the potentiality there (=at the place) activated by our own psychic force. That is, when a clairvoyant visits a place where a significant emotional traumatic experience happened, the clairvoyant sees it by clairvoyance. This is what is seen as the apparition, most of the time. Thus, in short, that an apparitional experience like this occurs to people is a truth. But yakshi.... if you ask whether the yakshi exists, ..... this concept of yakshi itself has many dimensions. At some places, yakshis are spirits of dead humans. For example, Melankod yakshi was Marthanda Varma's step mother, who committed suicide by pulling her own tongue out... she became Melankode yakshi, so says the legend. That's a woman who had committed suicide... But at the same time, yakshi is the feminine gender of gandharva. These gandarvas are tribals of the Gandharadesa, i.e., modern Afganisthan. They are good singers with mongaloid features... tribals.... Their females are called yakshis...Many Himalayan tribes with Mongoloid features (for eg. Kinnaras of Kinnaur in Himachal Pradesh) are good musicians. AR: Then this yakshan... VGM: Yakshan, yakshi. VD: No.... what I meant was... yakshan and gandharvan are the same...? VGM: The same.... It is said like that... AR: Then... what about... this yakshi harming or hurting people etc...? VGM: That is... long ago.. prostitutes, and like women, seduced men who travelled alone, and took their money etc. There was such a thing... From this, the above said yakshi stories emerged... These women usually wait (for their preys) under the Pala tree when it flowers... The smell of pala flowers is very sexually stimulating. So... if they stood there, the men who were passing by could be easily attracted... these women understood this. In olden days, these Namboothiris usually went for long journeys with a lot of money etc. The women like these, seduced them and brought them to their houses... and may be it is the men in their houses who would kill them (the Namboothiris). Thus... this yakshi concept might have emerged from this social reality. AR: There is evidence for this...? VGM: Yes. VD: Sir, did you have any para psychological experience? VGM: To me.... I'm not that much psychic. I've seen a lot of psychic persons. What I have is their experience. A lot of people know that I'm in this field. So, many people whom I have never been introduced before, phone me and tell their experiences etc. Thus, ... I've got a lot of material in my hands. Personally I only got minimal direct personal experiences. VD: Sir, do you believe in God? VGM: .... That depends on what you mean by God. I told you that pure consciousness is the reality. That is my orientation. The concept of God is the symbol of pure consciousness. We can rationalize so if we want. This is because I'm a researcher and because I've interest in philosophical concepts. The question itself (whether God exists) seems irrelevant to me... Reality is not matter, but consciousness... this is what I believe. On the other hand, God is our own projection. This is what I have felt. A very immature person has an immature God concept. A tyrant sees God as another tyrant. A benevolent person sees God as very benevolent. It is our projection. We assign a symbol to the pure consciousness based on our capacity and characteristics. The original reality -- pure consciousness -- cannot be conceived by us. This is my position. AR: I... last day, I was listening to a cassette of Osho given to me by Vinod. In it, Osho says like this... 'The God of a horse... if a horse thinks of a God, it would look like horse.... VGM: I, myself have written some where... when a buffalo thinks about God, (if it can think) it will be like another buffalo only AR: ... and...(the cassette says...) that if the horse thinks about Satan, it would be like the shape of man.... ALL: (laugh...) AR: ... because... man pains the horse very much. This is what Osho jokes. VGM: Yes. Correct. That is correct. VD: What is meditation? VGM: We can say that meditation is a struggle for us to reach the pure consciousness.... That's, it is useful at certain steps in this personal growth. But we cannot say that it's useful for all people and at all stages (of personal growth). What I think the ultimate practice is awareness practice. But that.... is possible only to those who have passed a particular level (of personal growth). AR: Then... can we say that there are as many practices as there are people... because... just like from any point of a circular region, one can go to the centre.... like that... from where one stands..... VGM: Yes... my attempt in Holigrative Psychology is this: To help identify the most useful combination of practices at every point of development for a person by understanding his own personality. Because..... in my whole experience up to now, I have seen people hanging on to rigid practices. These practices may be OK for some at a certain stage or level; but not for others. But everyone thinks that it is good for him and holds on to it firmly. This results in deterioration only... they pain themselves by staying inside some trap or another .... So, what I see as the purpose of Holigrative Psychology is to help everyone find their present personality pattern and respective position (in personal growth) and to help them to find the most suitable practices for their progress at that stage. AR: Sir, what have you done for your own spiritual growth? VGM: I've tried a lot (of things). Chanted mantras...; (tried) a lot of meditations..; physical exercises, asanas, etc. and many more, have been tried out. AR: And now ... at last... what're you doing? VGM: At last.... most of what I've done was useless. Many of these were (self) torture. AR: Or... were they necessary at those times? VGM: No. AR: Because... I've read somewhere that the Buddha also did a lot of things first ... what many experts told him to do... Then he understood that all thee are useless and then tried for his own method.... I've read like this... VGM: Some say that whatever you've done is not at all a waste... that these contribute indirectly... etc... then.... it is some of my friends who misled me... They say that if a particular mantra was chanted aksharalaksha (=as many lakh times as there are letters in the mantra), you get siddhis... and that they're chanting.... Then I may think... let me also chant this... like that I've done many things. I didn't have any benefits from this... and not only that, when I retrospect, I see them as torture. So.... if any effects have been there from many practices, it seems to be a negative effect.... AR: In India, it is said that there are four main paths... Many people say the Bhakti (=devotion) is important. But... those who are at a higher level say that the most important path is Jnana ... what is your opinion, sir? VGM: What I've clearly felt is that, this depends on the level each of us is... That's what I feel. But all these four are useful. At some point of development some of these should be given more emphasis. But, ultimately, it is the awareness practice which is the most important practice, in my opinion. AR: But... for example.... when one concentrates on an idol or on an image, and pray... then also, he is trying to practise awareness.... VGM: But... whatever we do has a positive component and a negative component. Then what's needed is to minimize the negative component and increase the positive component. We can use a grosser thing to meditate upon if we have no other choice at all. But when do so with a gross thing, that (practice) itself reinforces us to stay in the gross level only. That's why it is said that meditation on the formless is better than that on a form. [Now we decided to finish the interview. And, as we promised Ajeena, she was given time to ask her questions.] ABA: Heard that people speak to spirits using this Ouija board and all. Can we talk to spirits? VGM: People claim to have such experiences. But whether they are really speaking to spirits or accessing the collective unconscious or using ESP is not certain. ABA: I have a friend called Manila. She gave me a Christmas card last time. When I showed it to my father, looking at the handwriting and drawings in it, he said that she has got some emotional problems... How did he say this? AR: This question should be asked to me.... VGM: As Psychologists, we believe that whatever a person does, his personality manifests in it. So, when one draws or writes, the personality is manifested in it and a trained intuitive person can infer it from that. |
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Interview With Dr.V.George Mathew
The Preparation, the Team and the Journey
We have been thinking of updating psychology4all.com with new content and thought it would have been great if we could include interviews of Psychologists(Clinical Psychologists, General Psychologists, Para Psychologists, Social/Community Psychologists etc.), Sociologists and other experts from related fields. But the problem was that none of us have any experience in interviewing experts. However, we decided to take it as a challenge and resolved to start with Dr.V.George Mathew (VGM) because he was easily approachable and he & I have been meeting often.
The Preparation, the Team and the Journey
An interview with an expert is good only to the extend of the depth of the interviewer(s) also, as an interview can be considered as a joint production of the interviewer(s) and expert being interviewed. This posed a problem for us because none of us have the depth to interview Dr.V.George Mathew, who is a well known Para Psychologist and the Originator of Holigrative Psychology. So I thought that the Interview Team should have at least of two persons-- one with subject knowledge and another a lay person with deep interest in the subject. Thus we constituted a team consisting of myself and Mr.Vinod, an Engineering graduate and also an Online Share Trader who is deeply interested in Psychology, Spiritualism and Para Psychology. We prepared the questions separately so that our perspectives do not mix up. Each of us were free to discuss with others, if necessary. Then we edited the questions and structured them into five heads—Personal, General, Academic/Professional, Art/Hobbies, and Parapsychological/Spiritual. Then we got appointment and when we were about to start towards Dr.V.George Mathew’s residence, my twelve year old daughter Ajeena also wanted to come with us because she said she got some interesting questions to ask. I thought it would be interesting and three of us started from my residence at Perunguzhi to Mathew sir’s residence.
It was a half an our journey. We rode towards the south and cut across the Kerala University Campus and reached the other end called Thripadagiri (literally, the hill at the feet of the holy one). We reached "Leyam" (meaning sanskrit languor of the mind; the unison of dance and music etc.), VGM’s residence, exactly seven minutes before the appointment time. (In a way, the house name was meaningful. You can see in Mathew sir a Psychologist, Musician and Spiritualist united into a single person). The gate was locked from outside and we waited for him thinking that he might have gone out for lunch. The compound was surrounded by a compound wall and bougain villa were creeping out at both the left and right sides of the gate. Exactly at the scheduled time he came and we entered the one acre area inhabited with plenty of flowering plants, bushes and trees, almost looking like a thick forest. There was a path of about 50 feet leading to the centre of the compound. At the beginning of the path, on the left was a ----tree and at the end was a large fig tree on the left of which was an artificial pond which was covered with asola and other weeds and in which inhabited various kinds of fishes. The path ended in front of a three storied building, with walls decorated with climbers like what is commonly called "money plant" and natural designs engraved by the climate.
He welcomed us silently with a natural smile to the sit-out on the second floor of the building. I introduced the team to him. He was interested in Vinod’s Day Trading via the internet and asked him about it for some time. Then he suggested we start with what he calls the Holigrative Walk. We agreed and came downstairs with him.
The Holigrative Walk
We started at the right end of the gate inside the compound. It was like stepping into a new world. Each of us had a different experience. There was a one-feet wide earthen path which was made without at all disturbing the natural beauty. For example, pale yellowish coconut leaves of a nearby small coconut tree was allowed to encroach our way. We had to wave it away with our hands to move forward. My memories went back to my childhood days when I was at my ancestral house. I let loose myself, picking up the seeds of a climber called kunni & plucking balsam flowers for my daughter, plucking chrysanthus fruits and gave all to eat etc. The compound was occupied by arrow-roots plants, cashew trees, coconut trees, mango trees, papaya and a lot of other plants big and small most which I was unfamiliar with. Ajeena seemed to enjoy the walk each and every minute because it was her first experience with such a place of natural beauty. To Vinod, it was refreshing and relieving tension. I do not know how Mathew sir felt as he has been doing the same for years. But he moved a little quicker that he used to be. After two or three minutes we reached a plantain garden at one end of which stood 4 half-cone shaped cement seats with old car tyres used as its base. This was the end of the first half of the walk. Ajeena sat on one of the seats just to see how it felt. But we did not wait there for long. On our way back we came across two or three varieties of cactus and a few climbers. Mathew sir showed us a climber used as an alternative of soma latha by ancient Aryans who lived in India, to make soma juice for yagas etc. After that, the walk ended at the left side of the gate. Then we came back to the sit-out again.
Vinod and I sat facing the south; Mathew sir sat facing us; and Ajeena sat a little away and she plunged herself into a children’s magazine she took with her. She said she would ask her doubts when we finish. Although the room was messy with a lot of periodicals, books, papers, journals etc, we felt very relaxed because of the natural environment around us and of course due to the simplicity and authenticity of the person with us. The sight from there was also very relaxing – we could see very far from there. Mathew sir had once told me that such sights would make us feel calm because our ancient ancestors were relaxed at such sights because they could see enemies approaching them from a long distance then. Mathew sir prepared tea for us and we had it together. It was one of the best teas I ever had. This reminded me almost like the Buddhist tea ceremony. He offered us fresh ripe plantain fruits which he said he brought up in his compound using only organic manure. After the tea, as planned, I switched on the cassette recorder to record the interview and started the interview with personal questions. The environment was calm and I felt the melodious chirping of birds which I felt as the natural background music for the interview.
After the interview, Ajeena sang a song as suggested by Mathew sir. He assumed a different posture and I felt as if he has geared into a different state of his mind – that of a musician or of appreciation.
Before returning, we asked him how we performed our first interview. He said it was OK.
Now, it is your turn, dear visitor, how do you feel it?
Let me know this at
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WELCOME TO THE INTERVIEWS PAGE
We have been thinking of updating www.psychology4all.com with new and interesting content. But, it was a little difficult to get content because some of the Psychologists who were accessible to us were reluctant to write or had not enough time to relax and write. So, we had to innovate a way to capture the knowledge they have into words. I thought that interviewing them would be a good method for this and discussed the idea with others. All of them said that it was an idea worth trying because an interview gives much more than mere content. It could give the reader an opportunity to know more about the expert himself, his achievements, specializations, experiences, observations, opinions, attitudes, beliefs, values, tips, visions and other things he would not otherwise share with via an article. As far as the expert is concerned, he gets an opportunity to expose his own little known talents, and interests other than his profession. He does not have to spend more time also or does not have the trouble to put his ideas in an organized form to write it down. To the interviewers, it would be a different and valuable experience also.
But there was a challenge also because, we don’t have any experience in interviewing experts. But we thought we would take it as a challenge. The following are our efforts in this direction.
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_________________SIKM___________________ Synergy Institute of Knowledge Management A.S.Building, Parvathipuram Gramam, Attingal, Trivandrum - 695101, Kerala, India. Email: Website: www.psychology4all.com
PERSONAL GROWTH MENTORING/COACHING PROGRAMMEINTRODUCTIONWe all have astounding and infinite power within us. But, surprisingly, recent studies have shown that, only a very small part of our potential is being put to use. Many psychologists believe that we use only less than 5% of our actual potential. So, any improvement in one's ability to utilize one's own potential is truly a great thing.
“Most people live, whether physically, intellectually or morally, in a very restricted circle of their potential being. They make use of a very small portion of their possible consciousness – much like a man, who, out of his whole bodily organism, should get into the habit of using and moving only his little finger...” --Dr. William James, Father of American Psychology.
Yes! This is exactly the case with most of us. We want to achieve, to become successful in our lives, to grow spiritually and become self-actualized or self-realized. But, most of us do not use our natural talents or potentials. Because, we do not know that we actually have such a great potential. Even if we know that we have such a great potential in us, we do not know how to make it all happen.
But all of us should reach our maximum as envisioned by Thomas Carlyle:
“Let each become capable of all that he was created capable of being; expand, if possible, to his full growth, and show himself at length in his own shape and stature, be these what they may.” -- Thomas Carlyle Personal Growth Mentoring/Coaching helps you to move towards this future (as given by Thomas Carlyle above)from the present reality pointed out by Dr.William James (in the first quote above).WHY IS PERSONAL GROWTH IMPORTANT1. Everyone, without exception, requires to outstretch himself/herself not only to be leaders in their respective fields of endeavor, but also to be competent (or even merely to exist) in this time of global competition. You cannot outperform others unless you outsmart yourself. Moreover, the demands placed upon each and everyone of us by our jobs, socio-economic and technological changes are too high that our current utilization of our own potential is not enough. 2. The 21st century is considered the Age of Enlightenment by many. To grow spiritually and become a realized person is often a necessity now. 3. When all others around you are putting efforts to outsmart themselves, you cannot afford to ignore your own personal growth. 4. The ultimate cure for stress, stress related disorders or psychological disorders or personality maladjustment is personal growth and personal growth only. 5. Even persons with problems can gain much from personal growth because psychological problems are really the result of insufficient personal growth. Personal growth can be done as a supportive technique in the case of anxiety, depression, obsession, etc. As they improve their personal growth, their problems dissolve automatically and thus disappear altogether without any side-effects or symptom substitution. 6. Personal growth can bring you long awaited success/achievement because it prepares you for the same. 7. Many people don’t know where they really want to reach in their lives. Personal Growth gives them a sense of direction. 8. Many people know they have the talents. But could not perform due to one or other kind of barriers, which they are not aware of. Personal Growth dissolves these barriers and help them realize their talents. 9. Even highly successful people complain that they are not happy or peaceful. Personal Growth gives them insight into themselves and they could realize what was that which actually hindered their happiness. 10. Highflying professionals & Executives, researchers & creative people etc. need very much to outgrow themselves to maintain the heights they have reached or to reach new heights. Without Personal Growth this is not possible.
THE CONCEPT OF PERSONAL GROWTH MENTORING/COACHING (a.k.a. LIFE COACHING) Personal growth mentoring/coaching (a.k.a. Life Coaching/Mentoring) is rather a novel concept in India and especially in Kerala. But the concept is popular in developed countries like the UK and the US where people need to use most of their potentials to be competent or sometimes, even to survive in the highly competitive environment. In those countries people want to be more productive and creative. And, those who are already very productive and creative want to realize their full potentials to evolve both materialistically and spiritually and finally become self-actualized or self-realized. They usually seek the help of Personal Growth Psychologists or Personal Growth Experts for this.In India, most of us are still thinking that Psychology is for the so-called abnormal people only. Interestingly, the National Seminar on Professionalization of Psychology jointly conducted by Kerala Manasasthra Parishad and Kerala Psychological Society in March, 2000 at Trivandrum did not even dare to point out Personal Growth Mentoring/Coaching as one of the important areas for Psychologists in the twenty first century. But many people are now slowly beginning to realize that even normal people can be greatly helped by Psychologists. They turn to Psychologists for help in re-building their relationships with their spouses or other relevant ones, to help their children in their studies or in selecting a career/vocation, to help young people to prepare themselves for marital life, to help them with stress management etc. But we are far behind in using the knowledge, experience and expertize of Personal Growth Psychologists or other Personal Growth gurus in helping us realize our full potential or to help us move towards success/achievement or towards the final goal of ultimate self-realization.Whether it is your job/career/profession, or family/social life or your spiritual life, you can surely gain much from Personal Growth Mentoring/Coaching by a Personal Growth Psychologist/Professional. A Personal Growth Psychologist/Professional works usually with normal people and sometimes with people with slight personality disorders in which case he often starts from where the Clinical Psychologist and the Community Psychologist have done with. In Personal Growth Mentoring/Coaching, usually the Mentee will be connected to a Personal Growth Psychologist/Professional whose responsibility is to help the Mentee in his personal growth.
The Personal Growth Psychologist/Professional educates, trains, encourages, advises, guides, suggests (resources & tools, methods & techniques, strategies & tactics etc.) evaluates growth, gives critical feedback, supports you in the problems you want to solve etc. with an aim to give you deeper insights and to finally empower yourself in all the ways possible so that you would become more and more free and self-actualized. He/she helps you to arrive at your own solutions. In short, he/she partners in your personal growth. HOW PERSONAL GROWTH MENTORING DIFFERS FROM PSYCHOTHERAPY/COUNSELING
HOW PERSONAL GROWTH MENTORING DIFFERS FROM PERSONAL GROWTH SEMINARS/WORKSHOPS
HOW PERSONAL GROWTH MENTORING DIFFERS FROM PERSONAL GROWTH COURES/BOOKS
WHO IS PERSONAL GROWTH MENTORING/COACHING FOR
Everybody, however intelligent or highly appraised he/she is, needs the help of experts in Personal Growth. Surprisingly, it is the highly intelligent persons who need more help not only because they are the ones who are more aware of the benefits of Personal Growth, but also that they are very often slaves of their own views. Nobody, is free from Psychological/intellectual blind spots. Only someone else can help you to realize your blind spots, rigidities, superstitions, delusions, unhealthy or unproductive coping mechanisms, ego defence mechanisms, rigid personal rules of living, values, attitudes, and other limiting mechanisms that constrict & restrict your own consciousness. A Personal Growth Psychologist/Professional is trained to identify these, to make you aware of these and finally help you to transcend these to make your awareness more and more open and pure.
Most of us do not know our own real strengths, talents, positives, other abilities and skills etc. A Personal Growth Psychologist/Professional can help you not only in identifying these but also in improving them further so that you can continuously benefit from these.
OR, Do you think that at least one of the following describe your situation? Then Personal Growth Mentoring is surely for you.
AIMS/OBJECTIVES OF PERSONAL GROWTH MENTORING/COACHINGThe aim of Personal Growth Mentoring/Coaching is to help the Mentee to achieve what he/she wants in his/her personal growth by empowering him/her. This includes both materialistic and spiritual. WHAT IS DONE IN PERSONAL GROWTH MENTORING/COACHING
HOW IS OUR PERSONAL GROWTH MENTORING/COACHING DIFFERENT FROM OTHER SIMILAR ONESUsually, Personal Growth is wrongly defined or interpreted by many people including the Personal Growth Professionals themselves. Most of them equate personal growth to achievement of some material end alone. Some of them consider that skill development and personal growth are the same. The benefits one can gain from Personal Growth Mentoring/Coaching depend greatly on the definition of what Personal Growth is. So, if your definition for Personal Growth is not holistic, you could gain only meager Personal Growth. If you define Personal Growth as achievement or success in some endeavor of your choice, you realize ONLY that much. If you define Personal Growth as skill development or Public Speaking ability or Communication Skills or Social skills, you will achieve ONLY that. Thus, you need to have a definition of Personal Growth which is holistic. Fortunately, we have a holistic / integrative view of Personal Growth and we share our view with the Mentee and thus he/she could benefit more.
FEE, REGISTRATION PROCEDURE, MODE OF PAYMENT ETC. Usually, the fees for different Mentees are different because the requirement for support and the involvement from the part of the Personal Growth Psychologist/Mentor will be different with different persons. The fee (PER PERSON for a period of ONE YEAR) starts from Rs. 24,000/- onwards depending on the requirements and other things. The registration procedure is as follows (for Indian Residents and NRIs working in the Far East):
1. A questionnaire “PRIMARY DATA FOR REQUIREMENT ANALYSIS” will be sent to you and you have to provide all the details asked in that. After analyzing it, a fee is arrived for your personalized PGM and you will be informed about this.
THIS IS THE FEE FOR ONE YEAR and is applicable ONLY for Indian Residents and NRIs working in the Far East.
2. After we have received the DD, we will send you a Disclaimer 3. We may need more details about both your personal and professional/work life. 4. You will also be required to fill up some questionnaires etc. if and when required. 5. You will also be asked to sign in for a new FREE email ID exclusively for the Personal Growth 6. Based on “Who you are / Where you are” in Personal Growth at present and what your specific felt-needs are, a Personal Growth Package personalized (i.e., tailor-made) for you will
The PGM Package consists of: * Articles via email * Suggested reading (books, websites, ebooks etc.) * Permission to contact the Mentor/our network via phone/mobile for deep dialogs etc. for your own personal growth (you have to contact the mentor by phone/mobile at the mutually agreed upon timings. * Answers to your personal questions via email/chat/voice chat * Email/chat/voice chat/face-to-face counseling, if required * Personal (face to face) discussions/counseling will be arranged at our premises, if you need it (You have to reach there at your own cost, after taking an appointment with the mentor.) * Online discussion forum membership * Chat and voice chat (This is for 1 hour per week for one year chat/voice chat.)
7. You can extend your membership after one year, if you wish. You know, Personal Growth is BENEFITS OF PERSONAL GROWTH MENTORING/COACHING
CONTACT PERSON: Ajan Raghunathan Tel: +91 470 2635991 (9pm to 12 night & 8 am to 10.30 am) Email: Mobile: +91 924 996 4200
NB: Please feel free to contact Mr.Ajan Raghunathan for any clarifications or for more information etc.
CONCLUSION / SUMMARYPersonal Growth is a must for anyone who plans to become successful in his/her life – either materialistically or spiritually or both. Only Personal Growth Psychologists/Professionals with holistic/integrative mentoring/coaching methods can help you with personal growth covering physical, psycho-social and spiritual dimensions of personality. So, if you are genuinely interested in your personal growth, register yourself for the Personal Growth Mentoring/Coaching and thus be able to live a fulfilled life. *** © 2022 Synergy Institute of Knowledge Management |
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